Help Keep The Road Tolls Down - Drive To Survive

Site founder | 15 Feb 2010

Hi Gary,

You can also post road safety tips in the forum…

Regards,
Sandra

chris | 03 Apr 2010

I lost my big brother 42 years ago to a drink driver. For my 50th birthday, I wrote him a poem. It’s called “Dear Tony” and you can find it on www.sharemystory.qld.gov.au I then wrote a plea to all Australians to be more aware of what they do when in control of a vehicle that can become a weapon. It is on the same website, it’s called “Enough” In it I suggested that everyone should remember CPR when driving. The kind people at Enough is Enough printed stickers for me saying "Every driver needs to remember C-courtesy, P-patience, R-respect. I proudly show off my sticker, and it makes a difference to the way I drive. If you would like a sticker for your car, please contact me.

dominica | 04 Apr 2010

Hi, as a registered nurse and having lost my younger brother to road trauma the difference it can make with people knowing CPR is so important. I personally have coming home from shifts stopped and rendered assistance to injured motorists or pedestrians. It has and still scares me how many people who may still be alive today if someone attending a accident knew basic first aid. I believe all school children should learn.
Dominica

Garry | 04 Apr 2010

Hi Dominica,

If I can get the Dept of Education involved in a young driver education programme with all schools, this will be one subject that I want added to it so they will know what to do if they are first on scene before we get there. It would be good if everyone knew basic first aid as we have a large area to cover for road crash rescue.

ilts | 05 Apr 2010

Hi Gary,

getting edu’s involved is an area I have been working on. I would be happy to colab with you on this one it is the place to go, and go to the very young. 6yrs on is where it need to start for both CPR and road safety. Roads are some much a part of everyones life. When you were going through the education process do you recall any survival skills as a pedestrian or a carer of pedestrian? Looking at problems and solutions for a while it has come to a point where we must look a being on road as say ‘living road safety’. Like it starts when you wake up in the morning. Then you go out the door it is important to switch from mindset safety of walking around the house to entering the most dangerous place on the planet. I believe it is an instinct that has yet to enter our subconscious, cars are pretty new to the species. In many ways we are the test pilots.

I was thinking does Dominica or anyone have access to an online basic CPR tutorial. It is likely you would need human interaction to complete the CPR skill but in viewing a tutorial with an invitation to hook up for qualification could kick the numbers up given the reach of this new medium. Maybe it should be part of getting your licence. I not happy to admit I would have to wing it if the situation arose, its going on my to do list, must make feel good to know it, this is real case of knowledge is power.

Garry | 05 Apr 2010

Hi Ilts,

Thanks for your comment, When I was going through school at a young age, I can remember being taught on what to do before you cross the roads and it’s still being taught today, to look right, then left then right again before you cross. Basically that was all the road safety that was taught, All these young ones going for their licence, all they do is sit for a test, if they pass are handed a licence then its straight on the roads. They have to do 150 hrs and are suppose to fill in their log books everytime they get behind the wheel, How do the Road & Traffic Authority know if what they see is true or not, they don’t, I know some that have actually written down some things when they haven’t even done themselves.

Before they go for their P’s they should be made to go through a driver education programme and have the instructor sign off each lesson.

This is the way we do our training before we even get the certificate at the end, Our training books have a summory page with each topic that the trainer has to sign. At the end of each course, we are assessed, summory sheet handed in signed then sent off to our State Headquarters, then a few weeks later our certificate is issued to us. This should be the same for your licence.

With our first aid, we have to be recertified every 3 years as its higher than your normal first aid certificate. We are just below the paramedics due to us being involved with rescue.

I first learnt first aid just after left school in 87 as I went through TAFE for 2 yrs, Everyone had to do it as its part of the curriculum when you do any study through college, so I can’t see why they don’t start teaching this through school.

ilts | 07 Apr 2010

Hi Gary,

Interesting reading Gary. I think I learn’t more about how to assist someone injured at sports time at school.

I have checked out a fair amount of schools regarding road safety and safety generally.

They are doing the best they can but funds and human resources are so hard for them to get. The government can only do so much too due similar but more reasons.

The buck has come back to us to bring in some different strategies to help check mate the road safety disaster.

I see the police who are also battling away to put out a burning wheelie bin with a wet face cloth. Its easy to see the soul destroying stuff they’ve got handle, they get old quick if they are left out there too long.

Anyways I have about fifty face cloths if you’ve got a big bucket and are into putting them together to see what we can do let me know.

Dominica kicked the idea out there about CPR, me thinks thats a good start point for developing a can do stuff type team. The Red Cross have some online CPR I’ve been told, will have to go figure.

I am able to help you with planning etc and the spirit in the JBRT community you’d get an extra bucket or two for sure.

Will look out for your comeback, later, stay good or excellent even.

Garry | 08 Apr 2010

Hi again ilts,

I know funding is the biggest problem with everything. A couple of years ago we were asked to help out in a course that was funded by the Roads & Traffic Authority or better known as the RTA for year 11 & 12 students, This was run over 2 full days.
On the Thursday, our crew did a mock rescue and cut some of the students out of a vehicle so the whole group could see our spreaders and cutters at work.
On the Friday while I was there, a make shift court room was set up and the student that was in the driver seat had to sit in front of a real judge and face charges of drink driving and a few other charges, while the others had to take notes.
After that, they headed outside and was shown what the stopping distances were at 40, 50, 60, 80 & 100 kms in the dry then in the wet. Dont worry the police officer had plenty of road to do this on.
When the RTA applied for funding again the following year, they lost it. Now the course they run through the university, the students don’t take any notice and we aren’t allowed to use our equipment. The instructor had to interrupt what we were doing and ask the whole class to stop their chatter and turn all mobiles off.
What I would like to try and see happen is when the schools go down to Sydney for their yearly excursion, go along to a crash test lab and see how they crash test cars and watch what happens to the crash test dummies in the cars.
Some of our crew will see all of this in July as we have been nominated to represent Australia in Road Crash Rescue with the Australasian Road Rescue Organisation (ARRO)then they head over to New Zealand in 2011
I can’t see why the governments don’t put the money they get when people face court after being charged for road offences back into education so it helps to teach the younger ones as well.

Mark Battersby | 09 Apr 2010

G’Day,

I am a professional driver trainer and I am on the roads daily teaching and educating new drivers. My story is posted on this site but in brief I served 14 years in the Victoria Police and sadly attended numerous fatal motor vehicle collisions. Notice I did not use the term “accident”. Motor vehicle collisions involving serious injury and /or death do not happen by accident. One of the major causes is definetly lack of early proper professional training and wrong attitudes. I have developed training programs and methods drawn from my police training and experience. Also recent professional training as a driver trainer. From my research and reading of articles on this site I see a heavy leaning towards what I term “shock treatment”. in other words if we show the kids through mock rescues, dvds, videos etc the results of road trauma they will be so shocked that bthey will never consider speeding on a country road or taking drugs, alcohol etc. Unfortunately when considering the target audience being the male of the species between 18 and 25 this approach will have little residual effect. How do I really know this?? Because I was once one of them in fact fully employed as a police officer with the Victoria Police between those ages. Did I take risks, drink drive even speed? You bet and many of my young collegues included many who are no longer with us. Even after professional driver training of the highest standard and attended motor vehicle collisions where my job was to assist ambulance officers and other medical people to literally scrap bodies of the road. I would still jump in my own vehicle after drinking or simply severly in sleep debt and drive. I will not go into detail here but suffice to say I was involved in my own motor vehicle collisions that will not be found on police records but could have easily ended my life or the lives of others. So what is the solution or solutions?? Education, education and then some education. I know I can hear you thats what we have been trying to do but it needs to be driver focussed and from a point of true empathy from the perspective of the target audience. I think some shock is of value but lets not muck around. No more mock rescues, talks, etc. How about a visit to the morgue on Sunday morning or even a actual scene late on saturday night. On yes I can hear the do gooders now. What about privacy etc. Well what about really doing something to save lives. The scene of a nasty fatality is of course gruesome enough but even worse I believe is knocking on the door of the parent at 2 am on Sunday morning to tell them that their son or daughter is not coming home tonight and in fact every other night for the rest of the parents lives. This was something I was definetly not trained for. maybe Police officers are now trained for this but nothing can prepare you for the overwellming, words can not describe the grief and torment that a parent experiences whwn they get “that knock on the door”. So enough of the shock these young men need not only the right driver education early in their driving careers but in fact a holistic approach of mentoring and nurturing through the process. So that when they eventually take their drive test and are given their ticket to drive a motor vehcile in a solo capacity on the roads with the rest of us we can be as near 100 % certain that the risk has been minimised to acceptable levels. Notice I said minimised we know as human beings that when dealing with the subject of driving a motor vehicle we will never reach zero risk but I am up for having a bloody good crack at it. I am currently building a web site where I can post my driving education programs and resources for new drivers and their supporters. I hope to have this live before too long but time on this is limited as my first priority is to be out there sitting in the passenger seat of a dual controlled training vehcile giving new learners the benefit of a second to none holistic professional driver education. My approach has been recognised and is having impact in many lives. Earlier this year I was given a contract to deliver professional driver training to young learner drivers in foster care under the DHS. This program which is called an L to P mentor program is being administered by Wesley Melbourne Mission with government funding. I beleive there is a real opportunity to use this program as a pilot for a driver education program that will revolutionise driver education as we now know it. But to acheive this will need a very passionate and specially skilled group of people to drive it. No pun intended. At present we have started with a small number of participants and are right at the start of the process. I will be advocating for other input such as the morgue visit in time but at the moment focussed on giving the participants the good solid basics so that they can start driving practice with volunteer mentor supervising drivers. my hope is that through connections such as this web site that I will be able to find like minded individuals with the right skills to put together an action plan to save lives and not just another program to tick the box. Unfortunately my experience of the driver training industry as it now stands is not an impressive experience. It seems that the majority pf “driving instructors” are way out of date with their methods and their own personal development as an educator. There also seems to be an attitude of just doing a job for a few dollars or something to do. This is really sad and does not help at all. I have met and liase with some very good like minded trainers but they are definetly in the minority. My parting comment on this would be to check credentails and experience of a potential driver trainer for yourself or offspring very carefully. There are easy ways to do this and simply knowing the right questions to ask. This is definetly a passion for me and I hope to make more impact and in fact bring about positive results. ie reduction in road trauma in the days, weeks, months and years ahead. My mobile number is 0400 212 284 and I would be happy to talk and help anyone at anytime.

God bless

Mark Battersby
Battersby Driver Training
0400 212 284

chris | 10 Apr 2010

All you guys are amazing. Thank you for doing what you do.
Chris

Garry | 10 Apr 2010

Hi Mark,

Thanks for your input into the group.

I totally agree with you, there has to be more education done on road safety.

I know the police service is doing the best they can with what resources they have but they can only do so much, No one is trained to walk up to a door at any time and say “Sorry to inform you but there has been a collision and your son or daughter didn’t make it” I have been there when the police have had to say this. I had to witness this at one incident last year when a father found his son early one morning, my role was to try and keep the family away from the scene as they turned up, The police asked me to let them know when immediate family turned up so they could speak with them.
I do think they need to change the way people get their licence these days. I don’t know if any of the other emergency services do this but with our training courses, we get a learners guide, at the back of it, there is a summory sheet with all the topics that are covered, at the end of each lesson the trainer signs our books. At the end of the course, we sign it, tear it out and hand it to the assessor, we are put through everything we are taught and marked incompetent or competent. The assessor signs then sends it off to our state HQ. Why can’t they do something like this for learners. I know they do have a log book they are suppose to fill but do you really know what they write is accurate. With you that would be yes as you are the teacher.
I think having them attend scenes would be better than the morgue as they are in a controlled environment where out on the roads its a different situation until we do our take 5 risk assessment then start to stabilise the vehicles to make it safe for everyone to be near them.

If anyone wants to learn a bit more about road crash rescue, google it

ilts | 10 Apr 2010

Hi Gary,

“I can’t see why the governments don’t put the money they get when people face court after being charged for road offences back into education so it helps to teach the younger ones as well.” one would see your question as a very good one. I have observed the whole process and really the fine revenue and court revenue would just cover the costs of the process in my opinion. If anyone has more specific reports it would be good to see them uploaded in this community.

Marks comment mentions many advanced views on driver education. One of the academics who was involved in advising this community Prof Barry Watson of the CARRS program, made comments to supporting what Mark has inserted above.
When researching some road safety preventing back in 2007 I asked him what he believed could help reduce the road toll with young driver group. His reply was expand the learning process. Start educating indirectly at the age of ten. That is one end of the expansion, the other was like Mark is saying, re selection process of the driver trainer/mentor. The main point gleaned from Barry was you need to develop a communication philosophy for people (trainer & trainee) to engage and maintain in the few years after getting their license. I think providing a worthy acknowledgement to the good drivers would be a positive tool in the battle to affect a needed change of attitude. Put the spotlight to the positive points in a balanced manner. People are not that complicated they are basically all good. In any learning and development process compliments are far more productive than criticisms.
Did you think any more on the CPR topic.
Back later thanks Gary & Mark for a good read, got my grey matter putting a few things in prospective. :)

Mark Battersby | 12 Apr 2010

G’Day Garry,

I beleive you have hit the nail on the head re driver assessment. We as a community of educators, emergency service personnel, ex emergency service, doctors, experts in road trauma etc I think are well aware of who the main offenders are in road trauma. In Victoria at present a person gets their learners undwer the age of 21 and receives a log book in which they must log a minimum of 120 hrs including 10 at night. At the minimum age of 18 with a log book in hand with required time logged. Having held the learners permit for at least 12 months they can present for their drive test on their 18th birthday. The LTO will check ID and that log book is neat and that minimum hours are logged with the numbers adding up correctly. The LTO will ask the candidate if they know what a three point turn and a reverse parrallel park is. The LTO then explains the length of test and that it is conducted in 2 stages. further that the applicant must listen to their instructions carefully and then a pre drive check some more housekeeping and away we go on the test. Fortunately just recently I have evidence at least local to the areas I work in that the failure rate especially for the first attempt has risen dramatically. I do not know what official stats would be but from my knowledge on the ground and then extrapolating with some old stats and probabilty theory I would say very close to 50 % and climbing. You beauty!! The recent Licensing System which is known as the Graduated Licensing System(GLS) was introduced approx. 18 months to 2 years ago to replace a very weak test criteria known POLAR. But it seems only recently that the new criteria is being strictly adhered to and from my study of the GLS I beleive that it has been designed based on the methods of driver education and standards that I was trained to in the Victoria Police. The lynch pin of that training was a system of car control which originates from methods derived from the Hendon Police in Britain in I think around the 1950’s. I have a lot more to say about this and some other features of the GLS which support my abocve statements and I am currently building my own web site where I will publish my training methods. So getting back to the assessment side of things. So even though the legal check boxes for being eligible to present for a vic roads drive test are very minimal and reflect almost no evidence of training content the applicant has at best a 50%(which I would say is very conservative estimate)of actually getting their licence. (Personally with regards to learners that I have trained and accompanied on test I have only one failure which was at the admission of the LTO a technical subjective issue with regards to the applicant’s use of mirrors but more about that later.)

I think as an educator we are able to seriously use the GLS criteria to determine if a candidate is truly ready for the drive test and the learners and their parents are becoming more aware of it. I still get many requests from parents along the lines of “well they have nearly done their 120 hrs which has been a pain in the arse and can you just show them how to do the parking for the test and how much do you charge?” I just smile and take the booking and then on the lesson I take the leaner for a drive and conduct an assessment on their driving against the GLS. I then return with learner and have a discussion with leaner and parent(s) reporting on my assessment. There is often resistance to my list of issues with the learners driving method/skills but I just keep politely referring to the GLS which I have a hard copy of and is readily available on the interbet on vic roads web site. I then make recommendations for a training come damage control program that the learner and parents should commit to ensure a pass at the drive test. The degree of difficulty for me to achieve this outcome increases in direct proportion to the amount of log book hours that nthey have allegedly done. Yes thats right usually someone who has done approx 50 to 100 hours of driving to mum, dads, mates etc standards is a lot harder to help than someone who has done very little driving. Pretty standard stuff really. The old breaking bad habits routine. Sometimes learners will come to me and already have their test booked in for say in 2 weeks time. I have had occasion lately where I have recommended after intial on road assessment that test be postponed until a proper training program has been conducted. So in conclusion(for now!! and until next time!!) it appears that the government will, for lack of better words, in a veiled manner drive(no pun intended) a safer more responsible driver on our roads through the drive test/assessment proceedure. we are in a election year and what potential learner/parent/voter wants to hear about yet more additions to the log book etc but me thinks it will come. In the meantime we use what we have got to best advantage. The other spin off to what is happening is that instuctors/driving trainers who knowledge/methods are out of date will be shown up at the drive test and people will start voting with their feet and beating a path to my door and other collegueas who are know and doing the right thing. I cringe everday at the general quality of driving trainer out there. I believe that I am a “doctor” of driver education and that patients(Learners/parents etc) come to me for true professional help and advice. I do teach way beyond the criteria of the GLS and again when my web site finally goes live(hard to find good help with web site building)I intend to document my methods so that the help can go to where it is needed. I think all the comments I have read so far are very valid and point towards a holistic mentoring,nurturing process for our new often very young drivers. From my experience in marketing, sales and life to really effect change the key decision makers/stakeholders need to convinced that the change is needed. In this case they are parents and learners. I would be advocating for an “DRiver education roadshow/presentation” that is well thought out and put together by reps from all concerned parties..medicos, educators, emergency service workers, etc(the good ones of course!!) Then take it to those decision makers and ultimately rverse the road trauma trend. I would love to met and talk with some you with regards to this. I have previously posted my contact number which is 0400 212 284. i hope that someone will make contact and that bwe can generate some traction.

God bless you all
yours in the fight against road trauma
Mark

Garry | 12 Apr 2010

Hi Mark,

It would be great to meet but at the moment, I am busy with the SES and my training, I have training twice a week as we are trying to get up to speed before half our crew head off to Sydney in July. We have been asked to represent Australia in New Zealand next year in Road Crash. There is a comp in July with the Australasian Road Rescue Organisation (ARRO) so the team that will be going over are going down to participate.

My mobile is 0401 674 456 if you want to get in touch.

We have to try and get something done as last night there were 3 accidents in a 12 hr period, 2 being fatalities. The one that wasn’t was in our area and we were called to it.

I have spent all night trying to get the message across to all of the road safety groups I’m involved with on facebook as I’m always putting my imput into these groups. I have also started my own 2 groups as well. This is how I created this group on here, I have this one on facebook as well, it has 625 members at the moment but it keeps climbing, I started them both at the start of the year after being called out at least once a week for road crash, My other one is called Lowering The Road Toll Campaign, so far it has 236 members.

So if anyone does have facebook, please feel free to join for any imput, it’s more than welcome

Garry | 13 Apr 2010

Hi everyone, Please come and join and help achieve this.http://www.fatalityfreefriday.com

cameron guy | 27 May 2011

I like to bring a point why is that electric scooters and bikes are not required to have third party or obtain some sought of license to able drive on the public road.

The scooter that I am mentioning for example is and there are many more different types of electric bikes and scooters.

The point I make is that for a person to drive a motor bike all car all other vehicles requires a license and too drive on the road you need also third party insurance.

Why that is the government is not amending the laws and requiring a person to get a scooter license and also insurance to protect pedestrian and other property and vehicles. At this moment we have a lot of electric scooters on road with no qualification or license and no insurance.

Why is that if you buy a electric scooter you do not need to go and sit a test and receive your L plates and then work up two a open license.

Also why is there one rule that says well if own an electric scooter then you do not have sit a a test or need any insurance and you do not need some sort of license. This does make sense and does protect the public of Victoria.

These electric scooters are sharing the road and are on the road so why are we not requiring a license for these vehicles. If I had a scooter hit my car and it was their fault I would have no assistance because there do not required to do so under law like motor vehicles.

I ask for a full enquire and investigation into why electric scooters and electric power bikes do not require some sought of license and insurance to protect the public and after all there are sharing roads with other vehicles. The point I make if you have electric powered car with no fuel then the government of Victoria then would have allow the same principal on electric power scooters not to discriminate or cause confusion but too allow it.

The second is that you need a license to drive on the road and we need to have insurance why is that the Victorian Government is ignoring the safety of general public and other drivers when comes to other forms vehicles sharing the road with the exception of pedal powered bikes by the natural means of leg and foot power.

I see that there is a need for a scooter licenses and a need to bring these into force. For example if a judge convicts and fines you in court for drinking driving or a traffic offences and you lose your license then you can leave court go an buy a electric scooter or electric bike and then proceed to drive on road and that you could commit same offense or even kill someone.

The law and government does not enforce or amend the licensing legislation that addresses these issues that you need to have a license to drive on the road. The Victoria Government and police should be enforcing scooters electric bikes. To be fully roadworthy and fully operational to protect motorist and people’s lives. We need a better system in place because if want to drive on the road the government says you need to get a license to drive on the road. So I ask the Victorian government to enforces the law and close this dangerous loophole the say that I lost license in court but I can get on electric scooter tomorrow and keep driving and who cares because the Victorian government has no legislation in place to protect families, children, aged population and to protect the general public and Victorian Police will not enforce laws as it only electric scooter what harm can it do and no legislation to allow police or courts to enforce the law.
We need to close the loop hole and make Victorian roads safer and protect the general public. We need to amend legislation and ROAD SAFETY ACT 1986. We need to add electric scooter and electric bikes to legislation as these vehicles can travel at speeds the same as a car doing 10 km to 60km an hour and has cause injury or death just lick a motor vehicle.

There is a need to amendment to the drinking driving laws and traffic laws as well as the police power need to be clearly set out what is required to protect the public and roads when it comes to a electric vehicles. Even webs sites promote this and encourage this As this scooter is less than 200w in engine size it is COMPLETELY road legal and does not need any registration, insurance or license to ride. But I see that if you drive car you need license and also third insurances to drive on the roads why is it allowable for electric scooters to be allowed to be exempt and put the public life at risk and allow a person without no license all understanding of the road rules to drive on road and act like all vehicle on road. This unfair contradictable and set a dangerous precedents for law suit and damages because of a loop hole that needs to be closed to protect the general public.I believe that need to protect general public and amend the laws which would include electric scooters that do more than 5kms and are on road and using the road just like any license driver because you see confusion and accident waiting to happen because you a license driver and person on electric scooter that has no license and this in turn cause a dangerous accident waiting to happen. We need to enforce the law and protect the public.

My recommendation is a full enquire into the electric scooters and to amend the law that will show Victorian people that Victorian government is serious about road safety and protecting motorist life’s a providing fair just government and law must apply to everyone across board and we can reduce the road toll and apply the legislation to electric power vehicles such as scooters and electric bikes and also modified Petrol or electric Bikes and scooters that at moment does not protect general public’s safety. I ask full investigation and consideration to amend the laws as soon as practicable to allow fare and just government and to reduce the road toll and stop making mockery and disrespect to our legislation and justice system and Victorian police and Victorian Courts. 23rd May 23, 2011

Yours faithfully

Cameron Guy